Che Ti Dice La What?

Actually Hemingway describes the man and the women as both being sad. He writes, "They ate without talking and the man held her hand under the table. She was good-looking and they seemed very sad." So, I think they are probably both mourning.
I did in fact read this story and I did like it. Though if it has some kind of colossally mysterious hidden iceberg meaning it was lost on me. There were a lot of different feelings conveyed though. Two themes that I picked out were 'time/travel' and 'observation or something'. Hemingway spends a lot of time describing the road, the dust on the road, what the travelers can see from the road. There is a particular part where Guy, the driver, keeps inquiring whether they can see Genoa anymore and they seem to be really eager to put Italy behind them. This seemed important to me. The travelers are almost fleeing but we don't really explicitly know why. The travelers are in serious observer mode where they make some contact with the people of Italy, but the contact that is made is very disconnected (examples: the woman in the restaurant and the fascist biker on the road). These are the things I picked up from the story, and I don't know if they are supposed to tie together into some bigger idea.


To revisit 'The Undefeated', I'm not sure I understand the context of this Christian understanding of bullfighting. Do the Spanish people see the Bullfight as some kind of religious ceremony, some re dramatization of the Crucifixion? Or is this just how Joe or some group like to think of bullfighting? I guess the symbolism makes some kind of sense, but it doesn't seem to justify the violence.
I believe the name Manuel is related to or comes from the bible verse:
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (KJV)
I think Hemingway was certainly aware of this, being that scripture seems to be an influence in his writing in general. Though I don't think his intentions are very clear for why he chose this name. I don't see him Manuel as a God-like figure in anyway though really. Maybe in someway a figurehead for God being with us. I don't know how this would be shown though, maybe by the fact that he survived so much adversity in the bull fighting ring.

bull"fighting"

I wanted to talk to Joe Riordan about bullfighting before I posted anything because he knows a lot about it. He was saying that many people see bullfighting as symbolic of the crucifixion. It also has to do with our lives (meaning the idealistic life of each person). At the beginning of the bullfight, the bull does not know the distinction between the man and the cloth he is waving. But as the fight continues, the bull is gradually learning and becoming more aware that the man is a distinct creature from the cloth and that the person is the one who the bull should go after. This is symbolic of the lives of people because as we grow and live, we learn more about ourselves and basically how the world works. As we get older and upon nearing our death, supposedly we will have figured things out. So once we finally reach the point of realization, it will be time for us to die. This is the same for the bull. Once he finally realizes exactly what is going on, it is too late and he will be killed soon after by the matador.

Joe also asserted that the bull is seen as a Christ figure because of its noble death. This interpretation is harder for me to understand though and I don't quite remember it as well. It has to do with the fact that it is not actually a bull"fight" at all. The bull is always destined to die. Thus, even if the man doesn't "win" by killing the bull himself (I really thought Manuel was going to get killed by the bull in the story...he actually may have. I know the ending is totally unclear.), the bull still MUST be killed at the end. So I guess the idea that this story was called the undefeated makes a lot of sense because the bull is always the defeated, while man is always undefeated. Man always wins (even if he is injured or dies in the process I suppose).

I just looked up the name Manuel; it means "God in us". This is curious and it makes me wonder 1. whether Hemingway knew this? 2. is Manuel supposed to represent God or a God-like figure? 3. does this problematize the crucifixion theory?...

Well I Quite Like That Iceberg Theory

I also like Che Te Dice La Patria? What a lovely, ambling, weird, snapshot it was. I am most interested in the man and woman sitting in the restaurant in the suburb outside of Genoa, where it was so cold they could see each other's breath. Was the woman the only one mourning? It only talks about her wearing black and looking sad, not the man. Is the man a guardian, a chauffeur, or a fellow mourner, but not as openly? I'm beginning to feel some weight behind Juliette's idea that the title of this collection is not random. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on the distinctions between men and women, especially emotional and even more especially with respect to life and death.

Does anyone know if Hemingway had a particular audience when he originally wrote this stuff? Who read this? And was it liked?

BOOK CLUB POLL - Your thoughts on people talking loudly and nasally in cafes:

Disdainful

Shocked

Queasy

Indifferent

(Circle one with your finger, then pour water on someone talking loudly and nasally next to you in a cafe).

Yeah, I had to read 'Hills Like White Elephants' twice. I read it the first time and I didn't completely comprehend what was going on. Some of their dialogue wasn't very clear to me, especially when she says, "And we could have all this and we could have everything and every day we make it more impossible." So, I went on wikipedia and I read about the whole abortion theory and I read about Hemingway's whole 'Iceberg Theory'. Everything made a lot more sense to me in the context of abortion. I think the story does have SOME meaning when you understand the 'operation' as just some general operation, but I really think Hemingway does go out of his way to insinuate abortion (though I didn't pick this up at all in my first read through).

Also, I'm not really able to relate with the woman at all with or without the abortion context. I was actually really annoyed by her character the same way I become annoyed with real life characters like her, and I'm not generally annoyed with all women so I am not saying that all women are like her. I think I just really find myself aligning with the male character. In my (of course sexist) opinion, I think Hemingway succinctly depicts the feminine 'feeling' persona versus the male 'thinking' person very accurately in regards to the typical dynamic these kind of conversations and situations have.

Triste

Hills Like White Elephants was maybe the saddest story I've ever read. Then Joe goes and tells me that it's about abortion. Does it have to be about abortion? Can I make it about something else in my own mind? I don't think that the point is to know what operation she's talking about, just that he wants her to have it, she wants to please him, he only wants her to please him if it means pleasing her too, the only way for her to be happy is if he's happy, he wants her to have a backbone and she can't, all she wants is comfort. I don't think we're supposed to know what specifically they are talking about, because leaving their argument in the general, theoretical form lets all of us relate to both the man and the woman, because we've all probably been on both sides of one of those vague, amorphous, but incredibly important arguments. Ugh abortion.

The Killers blew my mind because of the warped sense of time Hemingway has us running in. He really only gives us dialogue at the beginning when they're sitting at the counter, so it sounds like the whole conversation is taking place over a span of about five minutes, but as they talk about the clock on the wall you realize that almost an hour and a half has gone by. There must be so much physical action going on that we are not told about. There is no talk of struggle between Nick and Sam and their captors, but I'm sure it happened and we were just left in the dark about it. Otherwise they would have been complying with Max and Al's outrageous requests blindly and dumbly. Huh.

alRIGHT, kids

it's joe. garrity. here's the story.

my backpack along with my copy okay and im boring myself talking about this. I have my book back now. I'm working on getting through some stories. I'm already intrigued by the first one. Juliette and Brandon, do you remember "Bullfight City" on 8mm? Holy cow. or bull. The whole deal kind of makes me sick in a way. Though it's really fascinating reading such a succinct author as Hemingway expound on the "passsion" he associates with the people in this profession, or sport, rather. There's something interesting in his portrayal of some primitive struggle for man to conquer or--even if in death--exert himself upon the most formidable elements of his environment.

Bullfight City. Population: You and Your Conscience.

Hey, Hey, My My

Then there is something else to Manuel's motivations or something other than motivations for being in the bullfighting ring. There is some question here about what happens to people when they are too old to make a living at what they have been doing their whole lives. Sometimes it seems people keep trying to do what they do unsuccessfully to their own downfall or embarrassment. Often times it seems they don't even have much of choice for survival. I think a lot sometimes about the expression, "It's better to burn out than fade away." I don't know if it's true. Sometimes it seems true, but sometimes it seems tragic. Not that tragic can't be true, but maybe by being tragic it makes me want to not believe so much. I believe the phrase was coined by Neil Young in the song 'Hey, Hey, My My (Into the Black), however it's certainly an older concept than that. I know it was quoted by Kurt Cobain in his suicide letter. What is Manuel doing when he attempts to keep bullfighting beyond his ability? Is he burning out or is he fading away? I'd probably say fading away, because I think my understanding of burning out is a more sudden action, such as when the flame of a candle is extinguished. While Manuel's situation seems to be a more successive situation of repeated failures. However, if Manuel is fading away his plight still seems tragic to me.

A little bit more about the candle analogy. Would 'burning out' be considered the candle being extinguished when all the wax is consumed, or the candle being extinguished prematurely to the wax being consumed. It seems 'fading away' would be the slow demise of the flame while the wax slowly runs out, and 'burning out' would be the sudden extinguishing due to an overextended flame or tired out flame. Hmmmm!